Apparently there’s been a lot of conversation going on between Logic users lately over Pre Fader Metering.
I had no idea this was even a concern!
But over the last few weeks I’ve received many emails and comments from readers who want to know where I stand on the subject. Messages like:
“Where do you stand on pre fader metering? When mixing are you in pre fader mode? Would you change to post fader at anytime during mix session. I have read so many conflicting views bit I would value your advice.”
The question around Pre Fader Metering brings to my mind that old phrase “losing the forest for the trees.”
What I wonder: is Pre Fadering metering really the conversation we need to have here?
Or should we be more concerned with Big Wins like:
- Not clipping your recording input
- Not clipping your Stereo Output
- Streamlining your mix flow
- Getting great tones
- Mic Placement
You’re more than welcome to disagree with me. In fact, I encourage it.
But over the last decade of mixing, I’ve just never thought much about Pre Fader Metering.
So in today’s video I spent the most time I ever have on the subject. In the video I share:
- What is Pre Fader Metering?
- Why is everyone talking about Pre Fader Metering?
- When I actually use Pre Fader Metering
As someone who uses far more virtual instruments than live audio, I like using prefader metering to keep an eye out for synth presets that come screaming out of the plug-in. Some of Logic’s own synth presets are quite hot, and lots of third-party synth patches that I use are also quite hot – they’re well over 0.0 right out of the gate. So prefader metering lets me quickly adjust the synth’s own output volume to something more like we’d want when recording audio. I tend to stay in pre-fader metering at this point (who knows, maybe 6 mos. from now that will be different) because I sure don’t think it hurts anything. In fact, even if I’ve got a track pulled down/out of the mix, seeing when it’s active/inactive can be helpful a good ways into the mix process.
I tend to adjust the VI’s internal volume so that its output is near my target of -14, then each effect plug in I adjust for the same (gain plug if the effect doesn’t have that ability itself). Ideally, every track is then on even footing (fader at 0.0 and output around -14) and I have way more play on the volume fader itself.
Oh – forgot to mention – same thing goes for a lot of third-party loops and samples. Some of them are raging hot.
(Meaning I forgot, not you forgot. This was intended as a follow-up to my first post about virtual instrument levels. It’s not showing up yet…)
Hey CK, thanks for the feedback on this post! I agree with you that Pre-Fader metering is the way to go for setting input levels.
Having a week to look on the post, I realize I didn’t quite articulate the main point: as long as inputs aren’t clipped on the way in, then we have all the freedom in the world to adjust levels at any point in the chain.
Love hearing about how others use Pre Fader Metering in LPX 🙂
Good tip about always evening out the volume after you apply your effect. But here’s a question: If you use your ‘gain’ plug in at the start of the sequence of plug-ins to set everything to right level before effects and then compensate for the EQ and compressor as you’ve shown, when would you actually adjust the faders themselves?
Thanks Robin! I think Faders are still useful to make small adjustments across a whole mix. Turning everything down with a Gain plugin doesn’t necessarily mean everything is balanced in the mix.
Good thing is that you get to enjoy using the part of the Fader that has the most resolution!
I totally agree with CK here on Pre Fader Metering and here is why. For some odd reason, many of LPX’s presets tend to have way too much level. This can leave you with little to no headroom when mixing. So I will always leave the preset and all of its individual plugin components alone, and put a Gain plug at the bottom, or last in the signal chain to control the final output level when using a Logic preset.
I work in Pre-Fader Metering mode all the time, and I never change this setting whether Im recording or mixing. Maybe this is a habit from my analog days, but this is why. Back in the analog days, with a tape machine and mixer, it was always necessary to set the input gain adjustment on each track to get started mixing. But DAW’s arent set up exactly like mixers, because the Gain adjustment now is a plugin, and not a physical part of the mixer, and its ‘optional’ instead of just being there at the top of the mixer. Some people I know place a Gain knob on every channel for this purpose, to emulate a real console mixer. This is also referred to as a Trim knob.
In my opinion, this is essential for maximizing unity gain, which is a concept foreign to most digital engineers today. In the analog world, if you had a kick drum recorded with lots of level to tape, which was common for 2″ analog tape recordings, it was necessary to adjust or trim that signal coming back from the tape when mixing. Once the signal was trimmed and adjusted properly, then you were ready to insert some type of processing, like a compressor. Anyone remember patch bays?
Back then, in order for your compressor to function properly, you needed to have a properly adjusted level ready to feed into it, so that it reacted as it should. This is unity gain. Good in–good out. I believe this is also true today.
So, if youre working in a DAW, and you receive a song to mix, and you start with the kick drum, and it is recorded too hot, like -6 db but still not clipping, and you put a compressor in the signal chain, without adjusting or trimming the kick’s volume first, then the compressor is not going to react like it should because its not operating at unity gain, or at its optimum level. The same is true if the signal was too low.
Nearly all DAW’s and plugins operate their best at around -18db, which is widely considered to be Unity Gain or 0db in the digital world. So for me, I want level consistency when I begin to hit my plugins. I do not like to leave an overly hot input level on a compressor and make the final adjustment to the output level of the plugin to compensate, but prefer to address the input level first, like it was coming back into the mixer from the tape machine.
Maybe its just me, but this is how Ive always done it, for both analog and digital environments, and have always had the best results using stock or 3rd party plugins. Im never too set in my ways to learn new things, but unless Im missing something here, I personally find no reason to work in anything other than Pre-Fader Metering mode.
Love the feedback Jimmy! Today’s post was more to get a conversation going about Pre Fader Metering. So I’m excited to see that’s happening 🙂
Agreed – digital mixers have foregone the input trim which was necessary for analog consoles. Agree as well that most patches are quite loud for some reason.
For a long time I used a digital VU meter like the one on Slate’s VCC to adjust levels to 0 VU for all of my tracks using a Gain plugin. But when LPX introduced the recent “Normalize Region Gain” function, I took the easy way out and used it to automatically adjust regions based on Loudness values.
I just never thought to use Pre Fader Metering to accomplish the tasks you mentioned. And in theory I would think the Post Fader would accurately represent levels before any plugins are instantiated (including crazy loud ones).
Nonetheless, happy to learn why you and others are using it. Thanks!
Oh, geez! I’d already forgotten about Normalize Region Gain! Good one….
For recording you can always create an “input channel strip” in the Environment. This channel strip allows you to monitor the incoming signal, and is the place that you can add EQ and other effects to burn them in to the recording.
Love it! Thanks so much Chris for tip 🙂
Excellent points about pre-fader mode. I don’t use PF for input klevel check, but I find PF (pre-fader) very useful at the mixing stage for one important reason:
This mode disconnects my eyeballs from the visual level meters, and forces me to make fader choices based on EARS ONLY. Yes, even though I know that I should move the fader with my ears as the judge, I would still look at the levels meter, and my choices were influenced a tiny bit by being able to see the level meter change. So, when I am mixing now, I switch to PF mode, and I find my mix choices are more correct and musical.
Great insight Thaddeus, thank you! I can relate to that COMPLETELY. Not so much with fader levels, but EQ curves tend to throw me for a loop. “Does that look right?” is still I question I catch myself asking. So silly, since looks mean nothing!
When we were tracking to 2″ tape, it sounded great to slam those meters with a little heat for some good tape saturation. But thats not the case anymore. You cant slam any heat into your DAW or you’ll get digital clip ugliness, which may become a thing someday–who knows. You can still drive your favorite mic pre for some grit, but not a hot signal level.
We were also in an ‘Input’ monitoring mode button select with the tape machine remote control when tracking to tape, and ‘repro’ mode for playback. You had tape machine meters and console meters. The console EQ settings and sends would always be zero’d out by the next engineer who was working in the room on the next session. Unless specific notes were being taken for track eq and processing, nothing was ever saved and recalled like it is now.
Im still confused as to why one would use Post Fader Metering for recording and Pre Fader for mixing. I think you run the risk of false meter levels this way during the recording process but thats just my opinion.
This old analog tape method also put more emphasis on good in and good out. EQ and Compression were used sparingly and more to control levels and unwanted frequencies.
So when Im recording a guitar track into LP, maybe using a Universal Audio Marshall plug in the Unison slot on the Apollo, then I’ll use the master level out on the plugin to set the input level into LP, which I have set in PFM mode with the Fader at zero. This way I know exactly what level is going into the DAW and onto the hard drive, which is your digital tape machine now in case anyone’s wondering. If I add a LP compressor and EQ after tracking, Im still monitoring in PFM mode to check the level through that particular signal chain.
However, If Im tracking guitar using a LP amp preset, which is comprised of multiple plugins/settings, then I first set my level to that track with all the preset plugins bypassed, so I know exactly what my input signal actually is before processing occurs, ie the dry guitar signal. I do this to avoid false meter levels, which I believe is what you would get in Post Fader Mode with the fader above or below zero with the plugins active. Then I re-engage the plugins again, and see if Im still good with the level. If its too hot, which it often is, then I add a gain plug last in the signal chain, and adjust as needed. This retains all the tone and sound being processed through the preset settings, and keeps the level in check. And Im always doing this with the Fader set at Zero, or Unity Gain. Then I adjust or mix that instrument’s level with the Fader in the overall mix. So here again, I cant see why I would want to be in a Post Fader Mode here because I need to be watching input levels during recording, just as if I were going to tape.
Its worth mentioning that your input level is going to affect the way every plugin that makes up the amp preset reacts, so it should be as close to -18 as possible in my opinion. Why LP’s output is so hot on their presets I dont know, but Ive tried going in and adjusting the different individual plugin levels and it usually changes the sound.
When Im ready to mix, every track is usually already optimized to unity gain. I completely agree that its too easy to get caught up in mixing with your eyes watching levels. But when every track is zero’d out as we use to call it, youre ready to make overall fader level adjustments and actually mix without the worry of a stray track that might be overloading an individual track output. Even with the fader down on a track like that, your headroom is still being compromised in my opinion.
Then implementing the Normalize function Chris has been talking about should be ideal. Maybe Im missing something here, but I still havent found a solid reason to switch over to Post Fader Mode at any time during these processes. But thats why I like being subscribed to this site, to see if I can still learn how to do something better or differently.
I really appreciate the constructive feedback, Jimmy. I definitely don’t think I’m more “right” than anyone else! Based on the emails I was receiving, the questions about Pre Fader Metering seemed like it may cause more confusion than help.
My theory is if we don’t clip our input meters, then we have the freedom to adjust gain to our heart’s content after the fact. However, I love how you took the concept of working on an analog console and brought it into the DAW. There certainly is something meditative and illuminating about gain-staging!
Hey guys,
Late to the party here but I am usually ALWAYS pre fader because I want everything visually where the level is regardless of volume I am hearing,
I will say that sometimes I will pull up a plug-in like live drums (Superior Drummer) which can tend to be quiet and then need to pull down the entire mix so I can have my drums loud. Being that I mix as I produce this creates a problem in pre fader mode because I already have compression happening on my channels and if I gain down my audio regions I am changing my compressor behaviors that have thresholds set.
Would this be a good time to go into post fader and bring down all channels but the drums?
when your track is record-enabled, then pre fader metering shows the Signal BEFORE the audio fx inserts. That is why you should always use it when recording, e.g. guitar with virtual amp sim
Hi Chris, thanks so much for your comment! You bring up a great point, and one I had to remind myself of.
I quickly tested record-enabling a track in Logic Pro with Pre-Fader Metering both enabled and disabled while playing a guitar. It appears the behavior of Pre-Fader Metering is not quite what either of us expected, at least on my system (M1 Mac Mini, MacOS Monterey 12.6, Logic Pro 10.7.4). I’ll illustrate with screenshots.
To keep things simple, I loaded a single Audio Track with a single Gain plug-in to reduce the level of my guitar monitoring level in Logic Pro. I tested this using 2 different interfaces. The screenshots below are while using the instrument input on my Symphony Desktop.
When record-enabled, Logic Pro defaults to showing a “Pre-Everything” metering on the channel strip (pre-faders and plug-in processing), regardless if Pre-Fader Mode is enabled or disabled.
Even though my Gain plug-in is reducing the guitar signal by -96 dB, the level on the meter never shows a different level than what the incoming recording level from the interface will be.
So although in my headphones I don’t hear the guitar at all due to its reduced level by the Gain plug-in (as noted by the Stereo Output’s level meters), Audio Track 1’s level meter reliably shows the actual recording level we can expect when we press “Record.”
(Right-click or hold Control and click to open a menu in your browser to “View Image in a New Tab” if you need to see a larger version of the image.)
Screenshot #1 – Record-enabled track with Pre-Fader Metering enabled
Screenshot #2 – Record-enabled track with Pre-Fader metering disabled
Result: Neither plug-in processing nor Pre-Fader Metering impact the metering of record-enabled tracks. Record-enabled track meters only show the incoming recording level.
Note that the level on Audio Track 1’s meters in each screenshot shows no difference, aside from variations in the way I’m strumming an open E major chord. While the Stereo Output level meters in both screenshots #1 and #2 show no level at all.
This indicates that the actual recording level is being reported accurately, regardless of Pre-Fader monitoring being enabled or disabled. While the Stereo Output is accurately indicating the reduced monitoring level due to the Gain plug-in.
However, when a track is not record-enabled, but input-monitoring enabled, what the meters visually express are slightly different than when a track is record-enabled. But not different from what is expressed in this post.
When input-monitoring is enabled and Pre-Fader metering is disabled, the level meters on both Audio Track 1 and the Stereo Output both express a reduced monitoring level due to the Gain plug-in reducing the level of the track.
I changed the Gain plug-in’s value from -96 dB to -30 dB so we could see some semblance of level on the meters. The guitar is audibly reduced in level, and the meters reflect this as well.
When I enable Pre-Fader metering with Audio Track 1’s input monitoring enabled, both Audio Track 1 and the Stereo Output meters show no difference in level due to Pre-Fader metering being enabled.
The guitar track is still audibly reduced by the Gain plug-in. And Audio Track 1’s meters only express the monitoring level before the fader, but not before the plug-in processing.
Screenshot #3 – Input monitoring enabled track with Pre-Fader metering disabled
Screenshot #4 – Input monitoring enabled track with Pre-Fader metering enabled
Result: Pre-Fader metering does not exclude plug-in processing level adjustments on an audio track’s level meters when Input-monitoring is enabled.
Again, Pre-Fader Metering does not reveal a monitoring level before the Gain Plug-in’s -30 dB reduction on the incoming guitar’s monitoring level.
So now let’s compare when I make an adjustment to the fader on Audio Track 1:
Screenshot #5 – Input Monitoring enabled track with Pre-Fader metering disabled and with Fader boosted by 6 dB
Screenshot #6 – Input Monitoring enabled track with Pre-Fader metering enabled and with Fader boosted by 6 dB
Result: Pre-Fader metering only excludes fader adjustments from Logic’s meters for an input-monitoring enabled track. Pre-Fader does not exclude plug-in processing level adjustments.
Note that in Screenshot 5 the noted peak value of the guitar on Audio Track 1 is 6 dB louder due to the 6 dB boost of the fader on Audio Track 1 (-24.5 dB).
While in Screenshot 6 the noted peak value on Audio Track 1 is not increased by 6 dB thanks to Pre-Fader Metering being enabled. But the Stereo Output does note the increase in level due to the fader boost (-24 dB).
Again, the Stereo Output is noting the increased monitoring level of our track due to the fader adjustment that we’ll be able to hear through Logic’s Software Monitoring.
In this final example, Pre-Fader Metering does have a visual impact on Audio Track 1’s meters. But Pre-Fader Metering only shows us what level our track would report before the 6 dB boost of the fader. Pre-Fader Metering does not tell us what the monitoring level would be before the -30 dB reduction by the Gain plug-in.
In a nutshell:
1. Record-enabled tracks show the actual incoming recording level, regardless of plug-in processing or Pre-Fader metering being enabled or disabled.
2. Input-monitoring enabled tracks will respect when Pre-Fader Metering is enabled by showing the level of the Channel Strip prior to any Fader adjustments. But “Pre-Fader” does not mean “Pre-Plug-in Processing.”
There’s a chance this behavior might be different in previous versions of Logic Pro or in other DAWs. But I hope this helps!
Hi Chris, thanks for the very detailed update. Indeed what you’re saying is correct!
record-enabled tracks are pre-fader and pre-inserts, the meters are always showing the recorded signal, independently of the “Pre Fader Metering” option.
and input-monitoring enabled tracks are not.
Therefore my previous comment that you should always record pre-faderins is not correct.