Apparently there’s been a lot of conversation going on between Logic users lately over Pre Fader Metering.
I had no idea this was even a concern!
But over the last few weeks I’ve received many emails and comments from readers who want to know where I stand on the subject. Messages like:
“Where do you stand on pre fader metering? When mixing are you in pre fader mode? Would you change to post fader at anytime during mix session. I have read so many conflicting views bit I would value your advice.”
The question around Pre Fader Metering brings to my mind that old phrase “losing the forest for the trees.”
What I wonder: is Pre Fadering metering really the conversation we need to have here?
Or should we be more concerned with Big Wins like:
- Not clipping your recording input
- Not clipping your Stereo Output
- Streamlining your mix flow
- Getting great tones
- Mic Placement
You’re more than welcome to disagree with me. In fact, I encourage it.
But over the last decade of mixing, I’ve just never thought much about Pre Fader Metering.
So in today’s video I spent the most time I ever have on the subject. In the video I share:
- What is Pre Fader Metering?
- Why is everyone talking about Pre Fader Metering?
- When I actually use Pre Fader Metering
As someone who uses far more virtual instruments than live audio, I like using prefader metering to keep an eye out for synth presets that come screaming out of the plug-in. Some of Logic’s own synth presets are quite hot, and lots of third-party synth patches that I use are also quite hot – they’re well over 0.0 right out of the gate. So prefader metering lets me quickly adjust the synth’s own output volume to something more like we’d want when recording audio. I tend to stay in pre-fader metering at this point (who knows, maybe 6 mos. from now that will be different) because I sure don’t think it hurts anything. In fact, even if I’ve got a track pulled down/out of the mix, seeing when it’s active/inactive can be helpful a good ways into the mix process.
I tend to adjust the VI’s internal volume so that its output is near my target of -14, then each effect plug in I adjust for the same (gain plug if the effect doesn’t have that ability itself). Ideally, every track is then on even footing (fader at 0.0 and output around -14) and I have way more play on the volume fader itself.
Oh – forgot to mention – same thing goes for a lot of third-party loops and samples. Some of them are raging hot.
(Meaning I forgot, not you forgot. This was intended as a follow-up to my first post about virtual instrument levels. It’s not showing up yet…)
Hey CK, thanks for the feedback on this post! I agree with you that Pre-Fader metering is the way to go for setting input levels.
Having a week to look on the post, I realize I didn’t quite articulate the main point: as long as inputs aren’t clipped on the way in, then we have all the freedom in the world to adjust levels at any point in the chain.
Love hearing about how others use Pre Fader Metering in LPX 🙂
Good tip about always evening out the volume after you apply your effect. But here’s a question: If you use your ‘gain’ plug in at the start of the sequence of plug-ins to set everything to right level before effects and then compensate for the EQ and compressor as you’ve shown, when would you actually adjust the faders themselves?
Thanks Robin! I think Faders are still useful to make small adjustments across a whole mix. Turning everything down with a Gain plugin doesn’t necessarily mean everything is balanced in the mix.
Good thing is that you get to enjoy using the part of the Fader that has the most resolution!
I totally agree with CK here on Pre Fader Metering and here is why. For some odd reason, many of LPX’s presets tend to have way too much level. This can leave you with little to no headroom when mixing. So I will always leave the preset and all of its individual plugin components alone, and put a Gain plug at the bottom, or last in the signal chain to control the final output level when using a Logic preset.
I work in Pre-Fader Metering mode all the time, and I never change this setting whether Im recording or mixing. Maybe this is a habit from my analog days, but this is why. Back in the analog days, with a tape machine and mixer, it was always necessary to set the input gain adjustment on each track to get started mixing. But DAW’s arent set up exactly like mixers, because the Gain adjustment now is a plugin, and not a physical part of the mixer, and its ‘optional’ instead of just being there at the top of the mixer. Some people I know place a Gain knob on every channel for this purpose, to emulate a real console mixer. This is also referred to as a Trim knob.
In my opinion, this is essential for maximizing unity gain, which is a concept foreign to most digital engineers today. In the analog world, if you had a kick drum recorded with lots of level to tape, which was common for 2″ analog tape recordings, it was necessary to adjust or trim that signal coming back from the tape when mixing. Once the signal was trimmed and adjusted properly, then you were ready to insert some type of processing, like a compressor. Anyone remember patch bays?
Back then, in order for your compressor to function properly, you needed to have a properly adjusted level ready to feed into it, so that it reacted as it should. This is unity gain. Good in–good out. I believe this is also true today.
So, if youre working in a DAW, and you receive a song to mix, and you start with the kick drum, and it is recorded too hot, like -6 db but still not clipping, and you put a compressor in the signal chain, without adjusting or trimming the kick’s volume first, then the compressor is not going to react like it should because its not operating at unity gain, or at its optimum level. The same is true if the signal was too low.
Nearly all DAW’s and plugins operate their best at around -18db, which is widely considered to be Unity Gain or 0db in the digital world. So for me, I want level consistency when I begin to hit my plugins. I do not like to leave an overly hot input level on a compressor and make the final adjustment to the output level of the plugin to compensate, but prefer to address the input level first, like it was coming back into the mixer from the tape machine.
Maybe its just me, but this is how Ive always done it, for both analog and digital environments, and have always had the best results using stock or 3rd party plugins. Im never too set in my ways to learn new things, but unless Im missing something here, I personally find no reason to work in anything other than Pre-Fader Metering mode.
Love the feedback Jimmy! Today’s post was more to get a conversation going about Pre Fader Metering. So I’m excited to see that’s happening 🙂
Agreed – digital mixers have foregone the input trim which was necessary for analog consoles. Agree as well that most patches are quite loud for some reason.
For a long time I used a digital VU meter like the one on Slate’s VCC to adjust levels to 0 VU for all of my tracks using a Gain plugin. But when LPX introduced the recent “Normalize Region Gain” function, I took the easy way out and used it to automatically adjust regions based on Loudness values.
I just never thought to use Pre Fader Metering to accomplish the tasks you mentioned. And in theory I would think the Post Fader would accurately represent levels before any plugins are instantiated (including crazy loud ones).
Nonetheless, happy to learn why you and others are using it. Thanks!
Oh, geez! I’d already forgotten about Normalize Region Gain! Good one….
For recording you can always create an “input channel strip” in the Environment. This channel strip allows you to monitor the incoming signal, and is the place that you can add EQ and other effects to burn them in to the recording.
Love it! Thanks so much Chris for tip 🙂
Excellent points about pre-fader mode. I don’t use PF for input klevel check, but I find PF (pre-fader) very useful at the mixing stage for one important reason:
This mode disconnects my eyeballs from the visual level meters, and forces me to make fader choices based on EARS ONLY. Yes, even though I know that I should move the fader with my ears as the judge, I would still look at the levels meter, and my choices were influenced a tiny bit by being able to see the level meter change. So, when I am mixing now, I switch to PF mode, and I find my mix choices are more correct and musical.
Great insight Thaddeus, thank you! I can relate to that COMPLETELY. Not so much with fader levels, but EQ curves tend to throw me for a loop. “Does that look right?” is still I question I catch myself asking. So silly, since looks mean nothing!
When we were tracking to 2″ tape, it sounded great to slam those meters with a little heat for some good tape saturation. But thats not the case anymore. You cant slam any heat into your DAW or you’ll get digital clip ugliness, which may become a thing someday–who knows. You can still drive your favorite mic pre for some grit, but not a hot signal level.
We were also in an ‘Input’ monitoring mode button select with the tape machine remote control when tracking to tape, and ‘repro’ mode for playback. You had tape machine meters and console meters. The console EQ settings and sends would always be zero’d out by the next engineer who was working in the room on the next session. Unless specific notes were being taken for track eq and processing, nothing was ever saved and recalled like it is now.
Im still confused as to why one would use Post Fader Metering for recording and Pre Fader for mixing. I think you run the risk of false meter levels this way during the recording process but thats just my opinion.
This old analog tape method also put more emphasis on good in and good out. EQ and Compression were used sparingly and more to control levels and unwanted frequencies.
So when Im recording a guitar track into LP, maybe using a Universal Audio Marshall plug in the Unison slot on the Apollo, then I’ll use the master level out on the plugin to set the input level into LP, which I have set in PFM mode with the Fader at zero. This way I know exactly what level is going into the DAW and onto the hard drive, which is your digital tape machine now in case anyone’s wondering. If I add a LP compressor and EQ after tracking, Im still monitoring in PFM mode to check the level through that particular signal chain.
However, If Im tracking guitar using a LP amp preset, which is comprised of multiple plugins/settings, then I first set my level to that track with all the preset plugins bypassed, so I know exactly what my input signal actually is before processing occurs, ie the dry guitar signal. I do this to avoid false meter levels, which I believe is what you would get in Post Fader Mode with the fader above or below zero with the plugins active. Then I re-engage the plugins again, and see if Im still good with the level. If its too hot, which it often is, then I add a gain plug last in the signal chain, and adjust as needed. This retains all the tone and sound being processed through the preset settings, and keeps the level in check. And Im always doing this with the Fader set at Zero, or Unity Gain. Then I adjust or mix that instrument’s level with the Fader in the overall mix. So here again, I cant see why I would want to be in a Post Fader Mode here because I need to be watching input levels during recording, just as if I were going to tape.
Its worth mentioning that your input level is going to affect the way every plugin that makes up the amp preset reacts, so it should be as close to -18 as possible in my opinion. Why LP’s output is so hot on their presets I dont know, but Ive tried going in and adjusting the different individual plugin levels and it usually changes the sound.
When Im ready to mix, every track is usually already optimized to unity gain. I completely agree that its too easy to get caught up in mixing with your eyes watching levels. But when every track is zero’d out as we use to call it, youre ready to make overall fader level adjustments and actually mix without the worry of a stray track that might be overloading an individual track output. Even with the fader down on a track like that, your headroom is still being compromised in my opinion.
Then implementing the Normalize function Chris has been talking about should be ideal. Maybe Im missing something here, but I still havent found a solid reason to switch over to Post Fader Mode at any time during these processes. But thats why I like being subscribed to this site, to see if I can still learn how to do something better or differently.
I really appreciate the constructive feedback, Jimmy. I definitely don’t think I’m more “right” than anyone else! Based on the emails I was receiving, the questions about Pre Fader Metering seemed like it may cause more confusion than help.
My theory is if we don’t clip our input meters, then we have the freedom to adjust gain to our heart’s content after the fact. However, I love how you took the concept of working on an analog console and brought it into the DAW. There certainly is something meditative and illuminating about gain-staging!